1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,648 So today is August 26th, 2019, and 2 00:00:04,648 --> 00:00:09,300 the three of us are gonna have a conversation. 3 00:00:09,300 --> 00:00:11,143 I'm Pearl Robinson, and 4 00:00:11,143 --> 00:00:16,100 I've been teaching Political Science here at Tufts since 1975. 5 00:00:16,100 --> 00:00:19,600 I do African politics, and African American politics. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,940 Bobbie? 7 00:00:22,940 --> 00:00:28,689 >> I'm Bobbie Knable, I've been at Tufts since 1970. 8 00:00:28,689 --> 00:00:33,794 My first position here was to teach 9 00:00:33,794 --> 00:00:40,315 an English 1 segment on Black literature. 10 00:00:40,315 --> 00:00:45,520 And also to put into effect an ExCollege course 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,591 that was intended to provide extra attention 12 00:00:50,591 --> 00:00:56,230 to students who needed some help in writing. 13 00:00:56,230 --> 00:00:58,043 So- and at that point, 14 00:00:58,043 --> 00:01:04,160 it was directed toward the newly increased population of Black students. 15 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:05,940 >> What's ExCollege? 16 00:01:05,940 --> 00:01:10,881 >> Experimental College, which if I'm not mistaken, 17 00:01:10,881 --> 00:01:16,259 was begun in the mid 60s, which was designed to increase 18 00:01:16,259 --> 00:01:20,980 the curriculum by allowing people from the staff, 19 00:01:20,980 --> 00:01:25,068 and from outside, and even students... 20 00:01:25,068 --> 00:01:28,085 ...to teach courses that seemed desirable but 21 00:01:28,085 --> 00:01:32,850 would not be offered by the regular faculty in the departments. 22 00:01:32,850 --> 00:01:36,570 >> And then from ExCollege and that special English class. 23 00:01:36,570 --> 00:01:37,456 By the way, 24 00:01:37,456 --> 00:01:42,871 what was the English class because I always associated it with Baldwin. 25 00:01:42,871 --> 00:01:47,482 >> Well, it was actually a course that intended to 26 00:01:47,482 --> 00:01:51,790 introduce students to Black writers. 27 00:01:51,790 --> 00:01:56,476 And since there were very few of those included in coursework in high school for 28 00:01:56,476 --> 00:01:59,820 kids, this would have been their first introduction. 29 00:01:59,820 --> 00:02:04,020 So James Baldwin was certainly one, he's one of my favorites. 30 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,596 'The Bluest Eye' was one, and there were- and 31 00:02:09,596 --> 00:02:13,110 Maya Angelou would have been another. 32 00:02:14,740 --> 00:02:21,112 What's interesting is that I had not studied Black literature. 33 00:02:21,112 --> 00:02:25,955 And so this was my introduction to reading, and 34 00:02:25,955 --> 00:02:30,677 trying to use that process and the outcomes for 35 00:02:30,677 --> 00:02:36,630 students who were being introduced to Black literature. 36 00:02:36,630 --> 00:02:40,650 So we were- both of us, all of us- doing a lot of learning. 37 00:02:40,650 --> 00:02:42,180 >> So 'Bluest Eye,' Toni Morrison? 38 00:02:42,180 --> 00:02:43,776 >> Yes. >> Yeah. 39 00:02:43,776 --> 00:02:45,921 >> What did you study? 40 00:02:45,921 --> 00:02:48,121 >> [LAUGH] >> You get your degree in? 41 00:02:48,121 --> 00:02:54,160 >> Yes, I got a degree in piano at Oberlin College, 42 00:02:54,160 --> 00:03:00,360 thinking that I was going to be a concert pianist. 43 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:07,124 Took me about two years into that to realize that that might not be true. 44 00:03:07,124 --> 00:03:10,890 That for one, I didn't have the right temperament. 45 00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:16,196 I didn't like the idea of practicing six hours a day, and 46 00:03:16,196 --> 00:03:20,460 also that perhaps I didn't have that much talent either. 47 00:03:21,460 --> 00:03:28,671 So I didn't have another choice and I was in a conservatory. 48 00:03:28,671 --> 00:03:34,152 So I finished my degree, and then when I graduated, 49 00:03:34,152 --> 00:03:38,512 I concentrated on trying to find a job with 50 00:03:38,512 --> 00:03:43,372 no particular preparation in any direction, 51 00:03:43,372 --> 00:03:47,750 other than the one that I was unsuited to. 52 00:03:47,750 --> 00:03:50,710 >> I assume you'd read some of these books, though. 53 00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:56,231 >> Not by then, I mean that when I started, no. 54 00:03:56,231 --> 00:04:00,405 I didn't start to read those books until 55 00:04:00,405 --> 00:04:05,941 the 1960s when the civil rights movement began. 56 00:04:05,941 --> 00:04:10,295 And I mean, I'd had a very conventional education, 57 00:04:10,295 --> 00:04:13,699 which did not include Black literature. 58 00:04:13,699 --> 00:04:21,198 So the introduction for me was when the topic changed, 59 00:04:21,198 --> 00:04:26,577 when we started to talk about slavery or 60 00:04:26,577 --> 00:04:35,530 prejudice and different backgrounds that people came from. 61 00:04:35,530 --> 00:04:39,970 >> Okay, well let's pause now, and hear a little bit about Marilyn Glater. 62 00:04:39,970 --> 00:04:42,260 >> Okay, I'm Marilyn Glater. 63 00:04:42,260 --> 00:04:48,646 I came to Tufts in 1974 as a member of the Political Science department. 64 00:04:48,646 --> 00:04:54,505 And there I taught constitutional law to undergraduates in Political Science. 65 00:04:54,505 --> 00:04:56,649 >> How is it that you were teaching constitutional law? 66 00:04:56,649 --> 00:04:59,397 >> Because I've been to law school, is that the right answer? 67 00:04:59,397 --> 00:05:01,258 [LAUGH] >> It might be. 68 00:05:01,258 --> 00:05:02,100 [CROSSTALK] >> [LAUGH] 69 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:02,600 >> [LAUGH] 70 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:03,100 >> [LAUGH] 71 00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:04,878 >> That is the right answer. 72 00:05:04,878 --> 00:05:06,378 >> There was a connection there, but 73 00:05:06,378 --> 00:05:08,174 yes that's all >> Which school? 74 00:05:08,174 --> 00:05:10,105 >> I went to Yale Law School, and 75 00:05:10,105 --> 00:05:14,123 before that I had gone to Swarthmore College where I had gotten 76 00:05:14,123 --> 00:05:18,350 an undergraduate degree in International Relations. 77 00:05:18,350 --> 00:05:22,289 So there was some Political Science there. 78 00:05:22,289 --> 00:05:26,772 >> And constitutional law, was that connected with 79 00:05:26,772 --> 00:05:31,892 the civil rights movement or is that because you want to be 80 00:05:31,892 --> 00:05:36,990 a constitutional lawyer, or all of the above and more? 81 00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:38,266 >> All the above and more. 82 00:05:38,266 --> 00:05:42,074 When I went to law school, I thought that I was going to be a criminal 83 00:05:42,074 --> 00:05:46,890 lawyer because that was gonna help people at the bottom of the system. 84 00:05:46,890 --> 00:05:52,540 I spent summers in law school in neighborhood projects in Washington DC, 85 00:05:52,540 --> 00:05:58,110 and there, I learned that I did not have the temperament to do that work. 86 00:05:58,110 --> 00:06:03,320 I thought it was really important to do, but it was just too discouraging. 87 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:08,800 The good news about it was that most of the people...well, it's good and bad. 88 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,549 Most of the people that we spent time interviewing in jails in the middle of 89 00:06:13,549 --> 00:06:18,750 the night in Washington DC, were guilty or had committed some crime. 90 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:22,004 That's good because it means the system wasn't arresting people who 91 00:06:22,004 --> 00:06:23,750 hadn't done it. 92 00:06:23,750 --> 00:06:27,151 But what's bad is it's really discouraging to do that for me, and 93 00:06:27,151 --> 00:06:32,120 some people do it- and do it well- and it's really important that it be done. 94 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:33,125 But I didn't wanna do it. 95 00:06:33,125 --> 00:06:36,146 [COUGH] So then I worked- rather than doing that 96 00:06:36,146 --> 00:06:39,710 I had worked in an anti-poverty program in the 60s, 97 00:06:39,710 --> 00:06:44,375 where I worked in a neighborhood health center in the Bronx, New York. 98 00:06:44,375 --> 00:06:47,180 Then, that was a very new thing. 99 00:06:47,180 --> 00:06:52,021 One of the things that we did that hadn't been done before was to write 100 00:06:52,021 --> 00:06:54,750 up a pamphlet of patients' rights. 101 00:06:54,750 --> 00:06:58,530 Those words had never gotten used before: 'patients' and 'rights' together. 102 00:06:58,530 --> 00:07:01,900 So we had done that, and it was a place where there were doctors. 103 00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:03,690 I ran a department of lawyers. 104 00:07:03,690 --> 00:07:07,645 There were neighborhood workers, there were community workers and 105 00:07:07,645 --> 00:07:10,304 all of this whole mush together, where some of 106 00:07:10,304 --> 00:07:15,090 the day you were dealing with doctors, dealing with people's medical problems. 107 00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:20,751 Some of the day, we're dealing with their legal problems of the patients and 108 00:07:20,751 --> 00:07:23,277 trying to get the system changed so 109 00:07:23,277 --> 00:07:28,086 that some of these things that were connected could be worked on. 110 00:07:28,086 --> 00:07:31,746 >> Just for the record, so the anti-poverty program? 111 00:07:31,746 --> 00:07:36,027 >> Yeah, president Lyndon Johnson, in his era, 112 00:07:36,027 --> 00:07:40,095 the anti-poverty program was supposed to, 113 00:07:40,095 --> 00:07:44,590 there was a, quote, "war" on poverty. 114 00:07:44,590 --> 00:07:48,860 And one of the things that was part of that were all sorts of community-based 115 00:07:48,860 --> 00:07:53,010 programs, some that were community organizing, but some were health. 116 00:07:53,010 --> 00:07:55,599 So there were neighborhood health centers, 117 00:07:55,599 --> 00:07:59,420 the first ones were in Los Angeles in the Watts neighborhood. 118 00:07:59,420 --> 00:08:02,492 The other was here in Boston at Columbia point, and 119 00:08:02,492 --> 00:08:05,750 the third was the one I worked in the Bronx. 120 00:08:05,750 --> 00:08:08,490 And the idea was that you were dealing with the issues of poverty. 121 00:08:08,490 --> 00:08:13,120 So we did things with landlords going to court, where landlords would evict 122 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,970 people because they said people were eating their doorknobs. 123 00:08:18,250 --> 00:08:22,660 Jokingly they'd say that, but they meant that poor people destroyed their property, 124 00:08:22,660 --> 00:08:26,430 which was certainly an exaggeration, but that kind of thing came up a lot. 125 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,039 So the anti-poverty program was a comprehensive effort to try to deal 126 00:08:31,039 --> 00:08:32,270 with that. 127 00:08:32,270 --> 00:08:37,580 The health center that I worked in was run by a doctor who came from Canada. 128 00:08:37,580 --> 00:08:41,138 And another doctor who'd been on- is it Project Hope? 129 00:08:41,138 --> 00:08:43,170 The ship that sails around? 130 00:08:43,170 --> 00:08:44,760 I think that was it. 131 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,881 And we would go to Washington in those days, and nobody was over 30- or yeah, 132 00:08:48,881 --> 00:08:50,058 nobody was over 30. 133 00:08:50,058 --> 00:08:51,721 And we'd go to Washington and 134 00:08:51,721 --> 00:08:56,120 be able to get money to do these things because they were new things at the time. 135 00:08:57,450 --> 00:09:01,146 >> Yeah, that was a day when they thought poverty was about more than 136 00:09:01,146 --> 00:09:02,903 just not having enough money. 137 00:09:02,903 --> 00:09:04,237 >> Yes. 138 00:09:04,237 --> 00:09:06,269 >> [CROSSTALK] >> I guess there are some people who still 139 00:09:06,269 --> 00:09:07,265 understand that but- 140 00:09:07,265 --> 00:09:08,137 >> [CROSSTALK] >> Yes, but generally. 141 00:09:08,137 --> 00:09:11,702 >> Okay, so, Bobbie, 142 00:09:11,702 --> 00:09:16,262 how'd you get to be a Dean? 143 00:09:16,262 --> 00:09:21,325 >> [LAUGH] >> By just hanging around, I guess. 144 00:09:21,325 --> 00:09:23,249 >> [LAUGH] >> It was that easy for 145 00:09:23,249 --> 00:09:26,497 Black people to become deans at Tufts? 146 00:09:26,497 --> 00:09:27,650 >> [LAUGH] Well. 147 00:09:29,034 --> 00:09:34,664 >> Opportunities came up to do things that were interesting. 148 00:09:34,664 --> 00:09:38,067 So while I was teaching the course, and 149 00:09:38,067 --> 00:09:42,102 doing the program in the English department, 150 00:09:43,324 --> 00:09:48,424 Tufts had started a program for women over 24 who had either 151 00:09:48,424 --> 00:09:53,035 dropped out of college, or had never gone to college. 152 00:09:53,035 --> 00:09:59,254 And brought them to Tufts, gave them financial aid from Tufts' own funds. 153 00:09:59,254 --> 00:10:04,507 And let them be in classrooms and courses with undergraduates. 154 00:10:05,754 --> 00:10:11,020 That was unusual at the time. 155 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:16,080 And one of the things they found out was that group also had some writing problems. 156 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:21,758 And so I volunteered to offer them a similar 157 00:10:21,758 --> 00:10:27,290 course on writing, and got to know them. 158 00:10:27,290 --> 00:10:31,439 And then when the person who directed the program left, 159 00:10:31,439 --> 00:10:34,535 I was offered the position of directing. 160 00:10:34,535 --> 00:10:38,685 And I still kept my job in the English department but. 161 00:10:39,983 --> 00:10:45,453 And that was a really beneficial piece of luck, 162 00:10:45,453 --> 00:10:50,786 because I enjoyed that, and I enjoyed the fact 163 00:10:50,786 --> 00:10:58,860 that this was a not-conventional population in the school. 164 00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:03,720 And that they did interesting things, and they did them well. 165 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:10,280 But they also needed some support, and some help to get them through the work. 166 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:11,876 So that was the second thing. 167 00:11:11,876 --> 00:11:17,115 So while I was doing that, I was then offered 168 00:11:17,115 --> 00:11:22,541 the job as Dean of first year students and- 169 00:11:22,541 --> 00:11:25,598 >> Now, was that a newly created position? 170 00:11:25,598 --> 00:11:27,500 Or it opened up? 171 00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:28,410 >> It opened up. 172 00:11:28,410 --> 00:11:29,200 >> Okay. 173 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,695 >> And I liked first year students and 174 00:11:31,695 --> 00:11:36,490 I had worked with some of them because I was using some of them. 175 00:11:36,490 --> 00:11:44,040 I was teaching some of them and so I thought, well, okay, I'll do this. 176 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:49,051 I'll learn the resources and then see what I need to do to be helpful to students. 177 00:11:49,051 --> 00:11:56,015 And while I was doing that, The Dean of Students left, 178 00:11:56,015 --> 00:12:03,259 and someone said, Would you like to try this out? 179 00:12:03,259 --> 00:12:06,517 And I said no, 'cause I- first of all- >> [LAUGH] 180 00:12:06,517 --> 00:12:07,305 >> Sounds like me. 181 00:12:07,305 --> 00:12:13,149 Well, yeah, partly because I had not liked my Dean of Students in college. 182 00:12:13,149 --> 00:12:14,145 >> [LAUGH] >> And 183 00:12:14,145 --> 00:12:15,674 I didn't wanna be that kind of person. 184 00:12:15,674 --> 00:12:19,581 And they said, well, why don't you just do it for 185 00:12:19,581 --> 00:12:23,781 a year as an interim while we do a search for somebody? 186 00:12:23,781 --> 00:12:28,677 And I said, okay, if you promise me that I can go back to being 187 00:12:28,677 --> 00:12:31,664 First-Year Dean when this is over. 188 00:12:33,016 --> 00:12:37,463 And so I started and I was fortunate that the person who was 189 00:12:37,463 --> 00:12:41,911 the Associate Dean was there, and was very helpful, and 190 00:12:41,911 --> 00:12:46,747 I'm sure took on some of the more difficult parts of the task. 191 00:12:49,756 --> 00:12:54,679 And I also realized that a Dean of Students wasn't just there 192 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,424 to penalize people. 193 00:12:56,424 --> 00:13:03,175 That you weren't just there to punish and set out the rules and be hard on people. 194 00:13:03,175 --> 00:13:07,703 That in fact you were supposed to think about making 195 00:13:07,703 --> 00:13:12,767 the college environment more receptive to their needs. 196 00:13:12,767 --> 00:13:17,242 Make it easier for them to study, to create an environment- 197 00:13:17,242 --> 00:13:22,091 a learning environment- that would make them more successful. 198 00:13:22,091 --> 00:13:28,662 And so that there were lots of things besides saying no, that you could do. 199 00:13:28,662 --> 00:13:33,615 And so maybe about halfway through, it began to be appealing when 200 00:13:33,615 --> 00:13:38,810 I thought that those were things I could actually do in addition. 201 00:13:38,810 --> 00:13:39,960 >> What year was this? 202 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:45,239 >> That would have been 1980, about. 203 00:13:45,239 --> 00:13:47,254 >> 79 actually, 79. 204 00:13:47,254 --> 00:13:50,885 >> We had transformed the university by then, so the 60s. 205 00:13:50,885 --> 00:13:57,283 >> Yes. 206 00:13:57,283 --> 00:14:01,169 Because it actually does suggest that this position that you describe...that's not 207 00:14:01,169 --> 00:14:01,745 what the-. 208 00:14:01,745 --> 00:14:04,810 If we had a Dean of Students...I guess we had a Dean of Students when I was 209 00:14:04,810 --> 00:14:05,856 an undergraduate... 210 00:14:05,856 --> 00:14:08,310 I don't think I ever came in contact with them. 211 00:14:08,310 --> 00:14:12,527 But I do think it reflects some changes that were happening in how 212 00:14:12,527 --> 00:14:15,400 universities related to students. 213 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,163 >> Well certainly it was different from when I was in school. 214 00:14:17,163 --> 00:14:19,704 I mean, that's how I saw my Dean of Students. 215 00:14:19,704 --> 00:14:21,981 Was someone who, if she called you in, 216 00:14:21,981 --> 00:14:25,917 you knew it was to take up something that you had done that was wrong. 217 00:14:25,917 --> 00:14:27,558 >> [LAUGH] >> So Marilyn, 218 00:14:27,558 --> 00:14:28,615 how did you get to be a Dean? 219 00:14:28,615 --> 00:14:29,766 Well let's see. 220 00:14:29,766 --> 00:14:35,094 >> You jumped over, you're being political science departments chair. 221 00:14:35,094 --> 00:14:38,084 >> [INAUDIBLE] Yes, I was in the department for a couple of years and 222 00:14:38,084 --> 00:14:39,990 then I was- >> You have your picture still there- 223 00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:43,240 >> A picture from 30 years ago or 224 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,550 at least 30 years. 225 00:14:45,550 --> 00:14:48,444 Okay, no I didn't know that, but anyway. 226 00:14:48,444 --> 00:14:50,770 So I'd been in the department and 227 00:14:50,770 --> 00:14:54,520 then there was turnover in Chairs in the department. 228 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,023 So I became a Chair of the department, 229 00:14:57,023 --> 00:15:00,530 that then interacted with other departments. 230 00:15:00,530 --> 00:15:03,370 And I was pretty used to doing interdisciplinary things. 231 00:15:03,370 --> 00:15:06,580 'Cause I'd been in a health center where there were mostly doctors. 232 00:15:06,580 --> 00:15:10,609 And then I'd been in a political science department with political scientists 233 00:15:10,609 --> 00:15:12,060 rather than lawyers. 234 00:15:12,060 --> 00:15:15,330 So dealing with other departments was not strange to me. 235 00:15:15,330 --> 00:15:18,300 And actually, I thought it was interesting. 236 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:23,870 And at some point I became an Associate Dean in the Dean of Faculty's Office. 237 00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:27,320 I'm not sure if that's the right title, but that's the right idea. 238 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,744 And I did that, and then I became a Dean of Faculty for 239 00:15:32,744 --> 00:15:38,681 the social sciences and natural sciences departments. 240 00:15:38,681 --> 00:15:42,869 >> So now we know that I'm surrounded by two deans and 241 00:15:42,869 --> 00:15:47,763 we're gonna move into the subject of this conversation. 242 00:15:47,763 --> 00:15:52,132 [LAUGH] Which is some things that- actually Bobbie, 243 00:15:52,132 --> 00:15:56,501 you wanted to say, about the kinds of programs, and 244 00:15:56,501 --> 00:16:02,470 the philosophy behind the programs, that you were involved in. 245 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:05,805 Which were related to expanding, 246 00:16:05,805 --> 00:16:10,980 broadening the notion of who a 'Tufts student' is, 247 00:16:10,980 --> 00:16:16,848 incorporating new sorts of students into the student body. 248 00:16:16,848 --> 00:16:20,799 And what kinds of institutional supports were a part of it. 249 00:16:22,210 --> 00:16:25,558 And you can either start where you want, or 250 00:16:25,558 --> 00:16:28,728 I have a list of things that I can ask you. 251 00:16:28,728 --> 00:16:29,228 >> Okay. 252 00:16:31,420 --> 00:16:35,248 >> Would you like to begin with your beginning? 253 00:16:35,248 --> 00:16:36,948 So the first thing-. 254 00:16:36,948 --> 00:16:39,776 (This list is your list.) >> Okay. 255 00:16:39,776 --> 00:16:43,554 >> Which begins with the establishment of the Experimental College in 1964. 256 00:16:45,540 --> 00:16:46,135 >> Yes. 257 00:16:49,732 --> 00:16:51,620 >> And I think you talked about that a little bit? 258 00:16:51,620 --> 00:16:52,708 >> I did, yeah. 259 00:16:52,708 --> 00:16:57,734 And that was useful because it did give an opportunity for 260 00:16:57,734 --> 00:17:00,666 people to teach, competently, 261 00:17:00,666 --> 00:17:07,150 material that normally would not have been available to students. 262 00:17:07,150 --> 00:17:12,534 And so it broadened the curriculum in a way that was helpful for students. 263 00:17:12,534 --> 00:17:14,412 And it was certainly true, 264 00:17:14,412 --> 00:17:19,150 because they work to develop a supportive program that would work for 265 00:17:19,150 --> 00:17:25,590 students who needed help in writing, that that was a place that that could be done. 266 00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:30,726 And once they had developed something that seemed to work, 267 00:17:30,726 --> 00:17:34,114 the college was willing to take it on and 268 00:17:34,114 --> 00:17:38,633 have it be part of the English Department's work and 269 00:17:38,633 --> 00:17:43,682 part of what was offered to incoming students generally. 270 00:17:43,682 --> 00:17:47,783 >> Well, it's been around for more than 30 years, so I actually am curious. 271 00:17:47,783 --> 00:17:49,810 Were you here when it was created? 272 00:17:49,810 --> 00:17:50,862 >> I wasn't here when it was created. 273 00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:54,895 >> So I was just wondering if there was some sort of a demand, 274 00:17:54,895 --> 00:17:59,601 mobilization, or if you just had an enlightened person who said, 275 00:17:59,601 --> 00:18:01,758 "why don't we try this?" >> And 276 00:18:01,758 --> 00:18:03,380 I don't know whether there was a demand. 277 00:18:03,380 --> 00:18:08,282 I think there was probably a fair amount of evidence that it was needed. 278 00:18:08,282 --> 00:18:09,533 That if you try-. 279 00:18:09,533 --> 00:18:14,807 If you've recruited students, and they come to the English department, 280 00:18:14,807 --> 00:18:19,594 and one of the difficulties they have is doing the requirements,. 281 00:18:19,594 --> 00:18:22,257 The basic requirements in English 1. 282 00:18:22,257 --> 00:18:23,737 In freshman English. 283 00:18:23,737 --> 00:18:28,038 And there are enough students with that difficulty, and yet 284 00:18:28,038 --> 00:18:32,942 these are students that you think are gonna be capable in other ways. 285 00:18:32,942 --> 00:18:37,831 Then you start trying to figure out what can we 286 00:18:37,831 --> 00:18:42,740 do that will prepare them better to do this. 287 00:18:42,740 --> 00:18:48,033 >> So the Experimental College existed initially to do the English piece? 288 00:18:48,033 --> 00:18:52,808 Or was it broadening the selection of courses, the kinds of courses 289 00:18:52,808 --> 00:18:57,746 that probably dealt with- as we used to say- the "real world," and 290 00:18:57,746 --> 00:19:01,042 then they folded the English piece into that? 291 00:19:01,042 --> 00:19:06,285 >> That's right, it had a broader definition of 292 00:19:06,285 --> 00:19:12,333 what it was to offer and the English support was new and 293 00:19:12,333 --> 00:19:16,510 something they took on and did well. 294 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,906 >> The next thing you listed, in 1969, 295 00:19:20,906 --> 00:19:24,537 Tufts established the African American Center, 296 00:19:24,537 --> 00:19:28,437 now the Africana Center, and even hired a director. 297 00:19:28,437 --> 00:19:30,450 So were you present when that happened? 298 00:19:30,450 --> 00:19:31,366 >> I was not. 299 00:19:31,366 --> 00:19:32,141 >> Okay. 300 00:19:32,141 --> 00:19:35,840 >> So when I came, that had already been done. 301 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,831 And I've always thought that Tufts deserved credit for 302 00:19:40,831 --> 00:19:46,462 doing that because it recognized that they weren't just being 303 00:19:46,462 --> 00:19:51,680 'generous' in their offering space to Black students. 304 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,754 That they also had to be realistic about the environment that 305 00:19:56,754 --> 00:20:02,324 the students were coming into, and what might make it possible for 306 00:20:02,324 --> 00:20:05,520 them to succeed in this environment. 307 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:10,566 And so having a place where they could go to talk to one another, 308 00:20:10,566 --> 00:20:14,678 be with one another, exchange information... 309 00:20:14,678 --> 00:20:15,843 Was essential. 310 00:20:15,843 --> 00:20:21,561 And having that place not be just a student dorm with an RA or 311 00:20:21,561 --> 00:20:27,513 resident assistant, but have that be directed by an adult, 312 00:20:27,513 --> 00:20:30,450 would be important for them. 313 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,370 >> Okay, so you also kinda-. 314 00:20:35,370 --> 00:20:40,032 There's sort of a line that goes through this, 315 00:20:40,032 --> 00:20:46,926 is that you had the adult women, which then becomes the real program. 316 00:20:46,926 --> 00:20:47,800 >> Yes. 317 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,901 >> And once the women are here, you find that things like daycare and 318 00:20:52,901 --> 00:20:57,446 there are other things that need to be present to make their 319 00:20:57,446 --> 00:21:01,900 educational experience as full, and as enriching, and 320 00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:06,840 as available as it is to other students, >> They actually anticipated the need for 321 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:07,820 childcare. 322 00:21:07,820 --> 00:21:12,821 And I think that probably came about as they were trying 323 00:21:12,821 --> 00:21:20,444 to increase the number of women faculty, that in those days childcare was scarce. 324 00:21:20,444 --> 00:21:24,936 And so if you were going to attract people of a certain age, 325 00:21:24,936 --> 00:21:29,339 people who were childbearing age, or who had children, 326 00:21:29,339 --> 00:21:35,620 then you had to make some allowance for what was gonna make that work. 327 00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:43,000 So that was simultaneous with the opening of the REAL program. 328 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,633 And it was-. 329 00:21:45,633 --> 00:21:50,900 It was a godsend for me. 330 00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:57,500 Because I had a two-and-a-half year old and I could bring him here to work. 331 00:21:57,500 --> 00:22:02,600 And he would be in the daycare programming. 332 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,150 And that was for the morning 'cause I didn't want him to stay there all day. 333 00:22:06,150 --> 00:22:10,300 And then in the afternoon I shared a sitter with another faculty member. 334 00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:12,500 But it was... 335 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:20,118 Again, I think a recognition by Tufts that people had different requirements, 336 00:22:20,118 --> 00:22:26,838 that people who were eager to do what you were making available to them, 337 00:22:26,838 --> 00:22:33,800 would not be able to do it though without some support and help necessary. 338 00:22:35,530 --> 00:22:40,154 >> So then you talk about these early structural and 339 00:22:40,154 --> 00:22:45,570 institutional accommodations or broader diversity and 340 00:22:45,570 --> 00:22:51,661 inclusion as followed by the establishment of Asian American, 341 00:22:51,661 --> 00:22:57,774 Hispanic American centers, Women's Center, LGBTQ center. 342 00:22:57,774 --> 00:23:02,560 What's your point in sort of saying, okay, so we got more diverse? 343 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,607 Is it just that we got more diverse, or 344 00:23:06,607 --> 00:23:13,444 is there something more that you see happening in this process? 345 00:23:13,444 --> 00:23:18,279 >> I thought it was special to Tufts, 346 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:24,616 because I thought what it did was to recognize 347 00:23:24,616 --> 00:23:29,619 that people had elements of who they 348 00:23:29,619 --> 00:23:35,811 were that needed some kind of recognition. 349 00:23:35,811 --> 00:23:40,728 And that you could provide that, and that would free 350 00:23:40,728 --> 00:23:45,647 them then to take advantage of the opportunities and 351 00:23:45,647 --> 00:23:48,684 the things at the institution. 352 00:23:48,684 --> 00:23:56,408 And I also thought that, It was particularly... 353 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,746 I thought it was admirable of the college. 354 00:24:02,746 --> 00:24:07,996 To respect the differences among people, and 355 00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:13,244 not only to respect it and to sort of accept it, 356 00:24:13,244 --> 00:24:18,088 but to support it, to make it possible to do 357 00:24:18,088 --> 00:24:23,606 the things that people want to do despite the fact 358 00:24:23,606 --> 00:24:29,141 that they differ in some ways from other people. 359 00:24:29,141 --> 00:24:32,060 >> So, Marilyn, you overlapped in this period. 360 00:24:32,060 --> 00:24:32,578 >> Right. 361 00:24:32,578 --> 00:24:34,818 >> How did you see? 362 00:24:34,818 --> 00:24:37,200 >> Let me talk a little bit about the faculty side. 363 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,065 I think at the same time, 364 00:24:40,065 --> 00:24:45,800 we were fairly early in having Women's Studies. 365 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,709 I don't know if you remember- I think you were part of this- where the then Dean 366 00:24:50,709 --> 00:24:55,696 of Students convened women faculty during the summer to interdisciplinarily to 367 00:24:55,696 --> 00:24:57,621 talk about women's studies. 368 00:24:57,621 --> 00:24:59,320 And how to incorporate it. 369 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,157 Things that are taken for granted now, we didn't even have words for then. 370 00:25:04,157 --> 00:25:09,539 I still remember being in a room where there was an economist who... 371 00:25:09,539 --> 00:25:12,309 And race was not the major topic... 372 00:25:12,309 --> 00:25:16,800 Everybody in the group was invited to talk about, what they taught about and 373 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,307 to think about ways to incorporate things about women into their teaching. 374 00:25:21,307 --> 00:25:26,812 And I still remember the economist who was trying to explain about supply and 375 00:25:26,812 --> 00:25:31,628 demand and said that, when the supply of workers and the demand for 376 00:25:31,628 --> 00:25:35,603 workers crossed, that's where you'd hire people. 377 00:25:35,603 --> 00:25:38,300 And I still remember another faculty member, 378 00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:43,004 Vivvy Clarke from the Romance Languages who knew nothing about economics said, 379 00:25:43,004 --> 00:25:47,102 "that makes no sense because that's not what I see in the world... 380 00:25:47,102 --> 00:25:49,803 ...people still don't hire people of color, 381 00:25:49,803 --> 00:25:53,157 even though that's where the demand curve says it will be". 382 00:25:53,157 --> 00:25:56,857 So there were many enlightened things like that, that went on and 383 00:25:56,857 --> 00:26:00,307 people, then revised their courses to incorporate women. 384 00:26:00,307 --> 00:26:04,293 It was many years later that parallel things came up about 385 00:26:04,293 --> 00:26:08,543 incorporating issues of race, gender and sexuality... 386 00:26:08,543 --> 00:26:09,425 - not gender. 387 00:26:09,425 --> 00:26:12,484 Race and sexuality into people's courses. 388 00:26:12,484 --> 00:26:14,499 But it did come eventually. 389 00:26:14,499 --> 00:26:19,562 Now on the faculty hiring side, there was then discussion 390 00:26:19,562 --> 00:26:24,121 of how there were not enough faculty of color there. 391 00:26:24,121 --> 00:26:25,284 Ever since then, 392 00:26:25,284 --> 00:26:29,950 that has been a topic that's discussed and continues to be quite... 393 00:26:33,137 --> 00:26:36,119 ...I would say we failed, I would say... 394 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,258 >> [LAUGH] >> ...I failed. 395 00:26:39,258 --> 00:26:44,429 And I don't take all the blame for it, because first it 396 00:26:44,429 --> 00:26:49,377 takes people understanding what you have to do, and 397 00:26:49,377 --> 00:26:56,588 then it takes having them do it, it takes giving up old ways of doing things. 398 00:26:56,588 --> 00:27:01,327 I won't name names but you certainly know where people know the famous 399 00:27:01,327 --> 00:27:04,792 father of somebody and then they hire the son... 400 00:27:04,792 --> 00:27:08,929 people hire people who look like them, people hire people... 401 00:27:08,929 --> 00:27:12,742 This is all studies prove all this over and over again. 402 00:27:12,742 --> 00:27:16,827 I remember once somebody telling me that they were in a graduate student lab, and 403 00:27:16,827 --> 00:27:18,645 everybody had the same color eyes. 404 00:27:18,645 --> 00:27:21,797 >> [LAUGH] >> But anyway, and that's the pipeline. 405 00:27:21,797 --> 00:27:24,895 So those things were issues, and continue to be. 406 00:27:24,895 --> 00:27:30,275 One of my major rants was always about how I'd wanted less emphasis, 407 00:27:30,275 --> 00:27:34,913 or at least equal emphasis as there was in student affairs, 408 00:27:34,913 --> 00:27:39,181 where you talked about enabling students to make up for 409 00:27:39,181 --> 00:27:43,670 things they hadn't had in high school or whatever else. 410 00:27:43,670 --> 00:27:46,540 I said, we don't need to just fix the students, 411 00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:48,642 most of the students are just fine. 412 00:27:48,642 --> 00:27:53,462 What you need to do is fix the people who interact with them. 413 00:27:53,462 --> 00:27:57,405 Nobody wanted to take that on and still, nobody takes it on. 414 00:27:57,405 --> 00:28:02,799 Although I noticed this year at last, the first time I've seen in writing 415 00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:08,889 other than when I wrote it, talking about training faculty and administrators and 416 00:28:08,889 --> 00:28:14,288 other people that interact with students to deal with them effectively. 417 00:28:14,288 --> 00:28:17,780 That it is not just the students, it's the things that happen to them. 418 00:28:17,780 --> 00:28:22,367 But remember, in the old days, we didn't have words like 'microaggression,' we 419 00:28:22,367 --> 00:28:26,767 didn't have words for all sorts of things that give you ways of understanding what 420 00:28:26,767 --> 00:28:28,317 the students experiences. 421 00:28:28,317 --> 00:28:29,191 And by the way, 422 00:28:29,191 --> 00:28:33,714 faculty of color's experiences are often quite similar in some of these ways. 423 00:28:36,421 --> 00:28:40,214 >> I gotta throw out the name 'Bernie Harleston'. 424 00:28:40,214 --> 00:28:42,017 >> And you will notice: we all smile. 425 00:28:42,017 --> 00:28:46,558 >> [LAUGH] Since this is going into the archives for 426 00:28:46,558 --> 00:28:50,524 the record, and that's why I'm here. 427 00:28:50,524 --> 00:28:53,581 So I'll say something very quickly. 428 00:28:53,581 --> 00:28:59,367 I was a French literature major and I spent my junior year at the University 429 00:28:59,367 --> 00:29:04,789 of Bordeaux and the University of California study abroad Program. 430 00:29:04,789 --> 00:29:09,503 And by the time I finished my year in Bordeaux, I decided I now know 431 00:29:09,503 --> 00:29:14,330 what I wanna major in: Political Science, and I wanna do Africa. 432 00:29:14,330 --> 00:29:20,056 And so, I came back in my [LAUGH] senior year and started. 433 00:29:20,056 --> 00:29:23,926 And I knew that being a professor... 434 00:29:23,926 --> 00:29:27,689 I wasn't capable of imagining that. 435 00:29:27,689 --> 00:29:31,783 And so I declared a second major in Political Science, 436 00:29:31,783 --> 00:29:36,240 figured I would do Politics and French-speaking Africa. 437 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:41,097 And had a five year plan, learnt how to speak an African language, 438 00:29:41,097 --> 00:29:46,825 did a PhD in Political Science, did another Master's in Political Science, 439 00:29:46,825 --> 00:29:49,462 and second one in African Studies. 440 00:29:49,462 --> 00:29:54,761 And I came out on the job market, and there were two jobs in the country: one 441 00:29:54,761 --> 00:30:00,499 at Tufts, and one at Atlanta University, and I actually was offered both jobs. 442 00:30:00,499 --> 00:30:05,910 I decided to come here, but the only reason the job existed 443 00:30:05,910 --> 00:30:10,881 at Tufts is because Bernie Harleston created it, and 444 00:30:10,881 --> 00:30:16,404 he created it as an add on, and he created five positions for 445 00:30:16,404 --> 00:30:21,505 departments to try to find and hire a Black professor. 446 00:30:21,505 --> 00:30:25,762 And it had to be something that wasn't a part of the curriculum. 447 00:30:25,762 --> 00:30:27,160 >> Give his title. 448 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,142 >> He was the Dean of Faculty, in charge of faculty. 449 00:30:31,142 --> 00:30:36,043 [LAUGH] And when I had my interview with him, 450 00:30:36,043 --> 00:30:41,501 he told me, it was very hard to create this job. 451 00:30:41,501 --> 00:30:46,509 If you are offered the job, don't ask for anything. 452 00:30:46,509 --> 00:30:51,358 He's essentially telling me that he had just put out all his capital to create 453 00:30:51,358 --> 00:30:52,184 these jobs. 454 00:30:52,184 --> 00:30:57,054 So I was finishing my PhD, I had a job making $12,500... 455 00:30:57,054 --> 00:30:59,489 That's what they offered me. 456 00:30:59,489 --> 00:31:04,000 He said don't even ask for moving expenses. 457 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,355 And I came my very first day of teaching, I went to eat, 458 00:31:08,355 --> 00:31:10,831 nobody showed me where the-. 459 00:31:10,831 --> 00:31:13,806 (We used to have a faculty dining room). 460 00:31:13,806 --> 00:31:18,959 So I went on my own and the person at the door said, "this is for faculty". 461 00:31:18,959 --> 00:31:20,470 I said, "I'm faculty". 462 00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:23,293 They said, "we don't know that," and 463 00:31:23,293 --> 00:31:27,340 I had a hard time being admitted to go in and sit down and eat. 464 00:31:27,340 --> 00:31:31,710 So, they let me in, talking about I was a new hire, sat down, and 465 00:31:31,710 --> 00:31:36,956 one of the men at the table looked at me after I introduced myself and said to me, 466 00:31:36,956 --> 00:31:42,282 "how does it feel to know that you only have your job, because you're Black and 467 00:31:42,282 --> 00:31:46,856 a woman?" Probably 468 00:31:46,856 --> 00:31:51,686 my grandfather- like preacher- somebody came in to put these words into my mouth. 469 00:31:51,686 --> 00:31:54,416 And I said, "probably like being a Kennedy child... 470 00:31:54,416 --> 00:31:57,932 ...You never know if what you get you get because you earned it, or 471 00:31:57,932 --> 00:31:59,820 because of who your parents were". 472 00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:07,600 And it was at that point that I understood what Bernie was sort of telling me. 473 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,011 That, you know, it was really hard. 474 00:32:13,011 --> 00:32:16,392 Each of you, you probably have better ending stories. 475 00:32:16,392 --> 00:32:18,249 As I was listening to these things... 476 00:32:18,249 --> 00:32:20,920 Because you went to Oberlin, you went to Swarthmore. 477 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,004 These are the places that we hold up as models. 478 00:32:23,004 --> 00:32:27,896 And both of you have actually said you saw things at Tufts that you hadn't seen 479 00:32:27,896 --> 00:32:29,700 elsewhere. 480 00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:34,296 So does that mean that there actually is a saving grace that... 481 00:32:34,296 --> 00:32:35,682 that's something... 482 00:32:35,682 --> 00:32:39,150 As something special about Tufts? 483 00:32:39,150 --> 00:32:41,156 >> I think there was, certainly at that time, and 484 00:32:41,156 --> 00:32:43,240 I do think that Bernie was part of it. 485 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:47,240 I think that the, Dean of Jackson, and 486 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,770 the Associate Dean at that time, were part of it. 487 00:32:52,770 --> 00:32:57,756 That I think it was their, willingness, 488 00:32:57,756 --> 00:33:04,747 to go outside the lines, that made a lot of things happen. 489 00:33:04,747 --> 00:33:11,640 And it, for a good while, characterized what the college was like. 490 00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:15,571 My concern is... 491 00:33:17,864 --> 00:33:23,480 ...that it is hard to find two people with the kind of power that they had. 492 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:31,684 Who are willing to take the risks that they were willing to take, 493 00:33:31,684 --> 00:33:37,936 based on their idea of what was good for the college, and 494 00:33:37,936 --> 00:33:43,680 what was sort of morally good as well, and do that. 495 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,737 And I think that there are concerns about 496 00:33:48,737 --> 00:33:53,199 focusing more on financial costs, 497 00:33:53,199 --> 00:34:01,380 on competition with other schools that have different motives, 498 00:34:01,380 --> 00:34:05,708 sometimes, and goals than we do. 499 00:34:05,708 --> 00:34:12,155 And I think that puts at risk, some of the things that we could point to, 500 00:34:12,155 --> 00:34:17,097 from the 70s and the 80s that seem to define Tufts in 501 00:34:17,097 --> 00:34:21,306 a way that differed from other institutions. 502 00:34:21,306 --> 00:34:21,900 >> Marilyn? 503 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:22,907 >> Principles. 504 00:34:22,907 --> 00:34:30,102 There were enough people who operated from principle, and the size was enough... 505 00:34:30,102 --> 00:34:31,121 is enough... 506 00:34:31,121 --> 00:34:33,360 that you could be heard. 507 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,771 I mean, as a first semester faculty member, I remember going to meet 508 00:34:37,771 --> 00:34:42,651 Bernie Harleston over something or other and be able to do that and be heard. 509 00:34:42,651 --> 00:34:45,920 Not necessarily do what I wanted, but to be heard. 510 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,304 There was enough openness to new things that people would... 511 00:34:49,304 --> 00:34:52,352 there were enough people who were willing to try things, 512 00:34:52,352 --> 00:34:54,775 not even necessarily risk-taking things. 513 00:34:54,775 --> 00:34:58,546 But things that would incorporate new information, new perspectives, 514 00:34:58,546 --> 00:34:59,590 that sort of thing. 515 00:34:59,590 --> 00:35:03,351 You didn't feel that you couldn't be heard when something came up. 516 00:35:03,351 --> 00:35:07,656 I mean, when I was the young faculty member, 517 00:35:07,656 --> 00:35:12,981 I had a child and I went to the department chair and said, 518 00:35:12,981 --> 00:35:18,650 " I'm going to need to be off some next year". 519 00:35:18,650 --> 00:35:22,554 There was no maternity policy, but we made one. 520 00:35:22,554 --> 00:35:23,856 And everybody agreed to it... 521 00:35:23,856 --> 00:35:26,267 ...what how we, and I proposed how we would handle it. 522 00:35:26,267 --> 00:35:29,110 I would teach more, whatever. 523 00:35:29,110 --> 00:35:34,844 But he was open to that, and people above him were open to that. 524 00:35:34,844 --> 00:35:35,714 Yeah, so it's... 525 00:35:35,714 --> 00:35:39,467 ...it's the enough people of principle, who cared about the big picture. 526 00:35:39,467 --> 00:35:43,420 But also cared about dealing with the people who were there. 527 00:35:43,420 --> 00:35:44,755 There were negative things, too. 528 00:35:44,755 --> 00:35:46,617 I mean, there was not just your experience... 529 00:35:46,617 --> 00:35:49,680 ...and I would have eaten lunch with you, except I was home with the new baby. 530 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,430 I never went to the faculty. 531 00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:54,775 >> [LAUGH] >> But, 532 00:35:54,775 --> 00:35:57,580 there were other things that were parallel for faculty members. 533 00:35:57,580 --> 00:36:00,611 I still remember the time we were in a meeting, 534 00:36:00,611 --> 00:36:03,257 where beloved Professor Gerald Gill and 535 00:36:03,257 --> 00:36:08,028 I were the only two Black faculty members of the time, I guess, I think. 536 00:36:08,028 --> 00:36:11,870 And [INAUDIBLE]- this was a committee on something else. 537 00:36:11,870 --> 00:36:13,598 And something came up, and 538 00:36:13,598 --> 00:36:19,740 Gerald said something about students asking him where he'd gotten his degrees. 539 00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:21,255 And I said, "yeah, 540 00:36:21,255 --> 00:36:26,579 I get asked that too." None of the other faculty had ever been asked that. 541 00:36:26,579 --> 00:36:28,948 That was the first time we knew that- that, 542 00:36:28,948 --> 00:36:32,875 we got special attention from students, let alone from other faculty. 543 00:36:32,875 --> 00:36:36,411 So there are a lot of things like that that weren't great, but 544 00:36:36,411 --> 00:36:41,180 there were enough people who cared about principles, and cared about education. 545 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,292 When I first came here, there were lots of students who are first generation to go to 546 00:36:46,292 --> 00:36:48,473 college, or at least it felt to me like that. 547 00:36:48,473 --> 00:36:53,827 First generation to go to college and came from often ethnic minorities. 548 00:36:53,827 --> 00:36:58,710 I had kids, who spoke Greek at home, or spoke Italian at home. 549 00:36:58,710 --> 00:37:01,230 There were not very many Black students. 550 00:37:01,230 --> 00:37:05,243 But there were students who were at least different from some middle-class or 551 00:37:05,243 --> 00:37:07,023 upper middle-class White norm. 552 00:37:07,023 --> 00:37:11,511 >> And that provided a whole different kind of mixture, I thought, 553 00:37:11,511 --> 00:37:16,610 I know time is almost up, but there's one last thing I wanted to say. 554 00:37:16,610 --> 00:37:21,870 We got to a point where we had a Black community, and Sol Gittleman and 555 00:37:21,870 --> 00:37:26,420 his wife Robin, would have us occasionally at their home. 556 00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:27,816 (They lived on campus)... 557 00:37:27,816 --> 00:37:29,280 ...for dinner. 558 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,764 And we always had for dessert, bread pudding, 559 00:37:32,764 --> 00:37:37,740 made with Bobbie Knable's grandmother's bread pudding recipe. 560 00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:45,460 And I insisted that that recipe should be a part of Tufts' archives. 561 00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:51,557 So anybody who watches this video, you will know that the recipe is here. 562 00:37:51,557 --> 00:37:55,801 And you can reproduce not only the bread pudding, but 563 00:37:55,801 --> 00:38:01,187 that feeling of community that came with eating the bread pudding. 564 00:38:01,187 --> 00:38:04,403 >> [LAUGH] >> And thank you so much, Bobbie for 565 00:38:04,403 --> 00:38:06,470 bringing that >> You're quite welcome.